SCA Puzzler

[howeird]

Been reading SCA members' LJs, and there's an inconsistency which has been bothering me, because I'm hopelessly A.R. about things that don't matter. :-)

SCA territory is divided into:

Kingdom
Principality
Barony
Shire
Stronghold
Canton

The first four are classical British terms for political units, the fifth is more of a military term, but still Britt. But Canton is French, and to the best of my knowledge was never used outside of France and Switzerland (except for more recent appearances in Ohio and southern China).

The word they are looking for, I believe, is County, as in the domain of a count.

Tangentially, how come SCA doesn't have any empires? Or do they?

Comments

[mastersantiago.livejournal.com]

In SCA terms Shire and Canton are relatively equal. A Canton is the same as a Shire except that it is specifically part of a Barony, otherwise it's characteristics (required number of members, required officers, etc) are the same.

A Stronghold is specifically an SCA group on a mundane military base or posting. For example at one time there were enough SCA members aboard the USS Nimitz that it was classified an SCA Stronghold.

I'm not sure why we don't use the term County, except in reference to our own award structure, in which case a person who has ruled once as King and then stepped down is awarded his/her County and is styled a Count.

This is part and parcel of a system which simply grew organically rather then being thought out well in advance. As the SCA grew people simply grabbed on to whatever terms and titles they could think of to provide a structure to an every growing hobby.

As to the term "Empire" specifically, it has been suggested a time or two by our Board of Directors that they be stylized "Emperors" however this has always met with extreme resistance on the part of the SCA populace as a whole. We do refer to the SCA as a whole as "The Laurel Kingdoms."

[howeird]

once as King and then stepped down is awarded his/her County and is styled a Count
Well then they got that wrong too. In the real world, a king who abdicates is made a duke.

[mastersantiago.livejournal.com]

We use the title Duke for someone who has ruled two or more times.

Yeah, it's pretty messed up compared to actual history and usage, but again it has everything to do with simply being an organization the grew organically rather then being planned out from the start. The people who started this thing never expected to last this long. *smile*

[howeird]

I guess that's why it's called Creative Anachronism.
:-)

[bovil.livejournal.com]

If the SCA was just reproducing, say, 12-century Anglo-Norman history, worrying about precise recreation of Anglo-Norman titles and political structures would make sense.

Mind you, there are folks who think that's all the SCA is about. Everyone else remembers that political structures and titles differed across Europe and the Middle Ages, and that our charter is broader than that (and not limited to Europe or the Middle Ages, pre-1600 is really the only hard qualification in corpora).

[howeird]

Thanks for both comments, very educational.

My point is the SCA *has* adopted an English naming convention for its geographical divisions and titles, so the one French word is glaringly out of place, especially when the English word is obvious.

Since it's mostly Americans making up the titles, and they are further encumbered by regularly rotating their royalty, I can see how easily those can get whacked.

OTOH, the British precedents are easy to research, always have been...

[bovil.livejournal.com]

The disconnect is, I'm sure, intentional. There is no territorial nobility associated with a Canton (other than the Baron/Baroness above them). Having a "County" that's not associated with a territorial "Count" while still using the title "Count" would be even more confusing.

It's bad enough keeping track of Court Barons and Territorial (Landed) Barons and precedence.

[bovil.livejournal.com]

It's very odd. Let's see how good my memory is.

Barons, Princes and Kings (and their female counterparts, of course) rule over land. Princes and Kings win their position by right of arms. With the exception of the Palatinate Barony of the Far West (Japan, where their Barons are selected by right of arms) Barons are usually appointed by the Crown and the Kingdom Curia.

Well, except for some Barons. Some Barons are "Court Barons" rather than "Landed Barons." It's a "super-attaboy" title granted by a King or Queen. It's often granted to Landed Barons who step down after a long service to the Kingdom.

Crown Princes are not Princes from a land-stewardship standpoint, they're pre-Kings. Counts and Dukes are ex-Kings. Viscounts are ex-Princes.

A Kingdom is a large multi-state region.

A Principality is a sub-region in a Kingdom (multi-state or in-state, depending on the level of activity in an area). Not all Kingdoms have Principalities within them, and even Kingdoms that do may have regions that aren't part of a Principality.

A Barony is a large local group. A Shire is a small local group without attendant nobles. A Canton is a small local group that is chartered under a Barony rather than directly with the Kingdom. mastersantiago covers Strongholds pretty well.

The "Imperium" fiasco dates back to the early 70's. The early Board of Directors styled itself "Imperial Electors" and adopted Society rank above Kings as part of their directorships. This didn't fly, and since then the BoD has basically taken stewardship of the business operations of the organization. They still do rule on revocation and denial of memberships and warrants run up the ladder by the Kingdoms, but I get the impression they're reluctant to go against the requests of the Kingdoms on these issues. That's not to say that they don't piss off the Kingdoms, but now it's only on business and legal issues.

getting close!

[jschonbr.livejournal.com]

I play within the "Barony of the Westermark". My Baron and Baroness have to swear fealty to the Principality of the Mists, who are then swearing fealty to the king/queen of the kingdom of the West...

Shire is directly under the kindgom, with no specific fealty otherwise. This becomes semi-interesting as I have been doing my best to plan a full scale invasion of the Barony of Vinhold (aka Napa Valley). So, I can enlist people to join in the fray from other Shires, who haven't sworn fealty to the same prince...
It all gets pretty goofy to me at the end of the day.

If the people making the corpora of the SCA screwed up some of the language, I would say that is about par for the course...

I participate in the SCA entirely so that I can learn more about brewing. Everything else is just an added bonus. The people who get really bent out of shape about the political regions have way too much time on their hands IMHO.

This is also made more silly by the fact that we have kings for like 6 month (could be 4!) at a time. That is far too little time to get something really accomplished, in my way of looking at such things. I would want that to be at least a year at a pop at the shortest.
Not all kingdoms run the same way, so it could be different in different lands...

Cheers,
joel

Re: getting close!

[bovil.livejournal.com]

The West has 4-month reigns. Everybody else has 6-month reigns. Go fig.

I've never heard anybody state that Shires have different fealty and reporting relationships than Baronies (they just don't have their own territorial nobility). This may be a West thing, though.

When I was in the Middle and Northshield was created a Principality, one of the big benefits to the Kingdom was that all local reporting would first be rolled up at the Principality level, and the Principality would bring that completed reporting to the Kingdom Officers. This was regardless of whether a group within the Principality was a Shire, Barony, Canton or of incipient status.

Re: getting close!

[yourbob.livejournal.com]

When we formed Teufelberg as a shire, we had to get the consent of the Principality of the Mists. We remained within the Principality and did answer to them.

And the short reign was put in to specifically stop people from becoming dictators. They didn't want anyone to do too much damage. Because the Kings word is Law (in the West, at least), it was felt necessary so decisions that were felt incorrect by enough people would be known to be probably short lived.

[yourbob.livejournal.com]

County was deemed too confusing. County is, in most states, a real USA political entity that could too easily be confused with the SCA territory.

[howeird]

County is a real political entity in Great Britain as well, so that argument doesn't wash.
http://www.abcounties.co.uk/
Or did they think SCA folk would be naming a county Santa Clara?

[yourbob.livejournal.com]

Yes it does. They didn't want to get "county" mixed up with "county". Note that none of the location names (Kingdom, etc) in the SCA are real political territorial entity names in the US (they really didn't think it would go past Berkeley in the early days).

Using Canton eliminates having to explain the meaning of, frinstance, "Teufelberg County consists of central Contra Costa County." Much less confusion.

And within the rules, a location could be named Santa Clara. Rather than barring it, they just used a different term for the SCA political entity.

[Teufelberg's actually a Shire, but it's about the only SCA area I know by heart].